Musicologie Médiévale

Resources for medieval musicology and liturgy

Citta del Vaticano, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana

Lat 5319
XII ▪ Graduel du Latran ▪ Index en cours de réalisation par D. Gatté

Index MMMO :

http://musmed.eu/source/14915

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Replies to This Discussion

j'ai le microfilm et un scan en haute résolution (par vos soins :-). Si jamais, il est indexé dans le volume MMMÆ qui lui est dédié (je ne sais pas l'index, mais l'édition est pleine de fautes, hélas)

Bravo. Finally. In real Catholic quality. Once my camera was ripped for taking much better pictures from this manuscript. I am interested in the "fautes" you mention Luca, because they are probably also in my databse.

Dear mr Gatté,

Thanks for this MS copy. In what Century has this been written down? I Guess around 9-th C? according to the Neumen of maybe used in St Gallen, Laòn or some of the Roman Chorister-schools, Under Charles Magne all-over N-Europe, Before the 3- 5- line staff, by Guido Arrezzo.... 11-th C......

XII Century, Rome itself. The guidonian staff had only one or two colored lines, for F (red) and C (yellow)

Malheureusement, je n'ai pas rédigé de liste... je me souviens de plusieurs fautes de clé et de notes (sans parler des problèmes liés au manuscrit lui-même)



Geert Maessen said:

Bravo. Finally. In real Catholic quality. Once my camera was ripped for taking much better pictures from this manuscript. I am interested in the "fautes" you mention Luca, because they are probably also in my databse.

I guess that Geert is alluding to this very unloved child pointing at the poor quality of the reproduction. Nice coloured print editions of the facsimile will become unavailable after a few decades, and their quality will not last like the original, even if some European librarians take more care for the facsimile editions than for the real manuscripts.

If the Vatican was more seriously interested in its own tradition, this manuscript would have been the first coloured reproduction of the whole Vatican Library collections, in a quality which was in fact established as a new and insuperable standard at Grottaferrata, the atelier and school of Italian restaurators which also did the reproductions for Benevento and for the local collection of the Abbey. Whenever I was forced to asked for the original manuscript, there was very few I could see more, sometimes the photographies even helped me to see certain details better.

In this comparison this publication is worse than a bad joke!

I will not repeat the discussion that we already had here, but Andreas Pfisterer as well as Michel Huglo regarded this book as the only one of the Schola cantorum that we have, and concerning many liturgical details it is in fact among all Old Roman sources the most interesting one, which we should discuss here in the very detail.

It was written after those liturgical reforms of the 11th and the 12th centuries which tried to establish Gregorian chant in Southern Italy, due to the influence of French and German speaking monasteries which educated certain Reform Popes. Fortunately, they did not succeed, but I wished there would be more colleagues to be proud of this little, but very complex historical fact!

Dear Oliver, I only meant to say that once (February 2007), I made some very good pictures of chants and details in this manuscript. But I was forced to erase my camera, and had to buy pictures like you can see now in this "facsimile". So I further relied on the MMMA edition I had copied before. 

 Merci pour le nouveau index, Dominique !

There is, in the same page layout but readable, also this Master thesis published in 1971 (by the way not mentioned among the references):

Colk, Alma Lorraine. A Study of the Ornate Antiphons in MS. Vat. Lat. 5319. Vancouver: University of British Columbia, 3 May 1971: http://hdl.handle.net/2429/34217

Please note that the former comments here relate to an unreadable black-and-white reproduction which was sold to readers for many years (prizes are very high at the Vatican Library), after they were forced to delete better photos of the original (in a desperate effort to get something readable). Please read Geert's comments...

Now, this is more like it. I just wonder why this did happen so late (or who had the charitable initiative to donate money that we finally can have a reproduction which gives us an idea how this gradual looks like in its current state).

Great news and it is the only gradual of the Schola cantorum which has survived!

Please study the differences and make up your own mind...

By the way, the formerly assumed provenance to the Basilica of San Giovanni in Laterano is due to a procession to this church which is also mentioned within the Ordo romanum.

Bonjour,

Ceci est pour moi l'occasion de poser la question suivante :

Existe-t-il une possibilité sur Vaticana, comme sur Gallica, de télécharger l'intégralité du scan du manuscrit en un gros fichier pdf ? Jusqu'ici je n'ai réussi qu'à télécharger une page à la fois...

(J'en profite évidemment pour remercier aussi de la création de l'index)

Ça dépend entièrement de la bibliothèque et son portale pour les manuscrits numérisés.  Gallica (le portale utilisé par BnF et beaucoup d'autres collections en France) a la fonction de télécharger le manuscrit entier ("document entier") dans une résolution qui suffit pour les études, mais pas pour une publication de certaines pages...  Et bien sur, il faut demander une authorisation en tous cas !

La Bayerische Staatsbibliothek offre une fonction "Download" sur la page en haut à droit et un lien pour ordonner les réproductions.  Suivant "download" vous pourriez spécifiez les images du pdf...

Les manuscrits suisses présents chez e-codices ont seulement la fonction télécharger sur le vue d'une seule page, mais on peut choisir entre quatre résolutions.

En comparaison le lecteur de la Bibliothèque apostolique du Vatican a un button "JPG" et on pourrait seulement choisir entre deux résolutions (correspondant aux plus pétits chez e-codices).  Mais, quelques manuscrits étaient au début numérisés par la bibliothèque universitaire de Heidelberg, dans ce portale sont tous les manuscrits du Fondo palatino latino :
http://bibliotheca-laureshamensis-digital.de/de/virtuelle_bibliothe...

Normalement le index est plus détaillé, on ne peut rien fair que télécharger une page, mais la résolution est au moins 1474px × 2119px !  Il y a quelques exceptions qu'on pourrait télécharger complètement :
http://bibliotheca-laureshamensis-digital.de/view/ubhd_cpl1568

Mais ce manuscrit n'existe pas sur ce portale.  En comparaison, la Staatsbibliothek Berlin n'offre aucune fonction de télécharger un des manuscrits numérisés et elle n'est pas exactement vite de faire le service d'une réproduction (je conseille calculer quelques mois, en particuliers, s'il faut faire une nouvelle numérisation!!!).

Pour les demandes plus spécifiées (p.e. infrarouge, ultraviolet) et leurs prix, on pourrait ordonner avec les formes (usage privée ou publique) :
https://www.vatlib.it/home.php?pag=riproduzioni_fotografiche

Dans ces formes, vous trouvez aussi les prix courrants !

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