Bonjour a tous.
Can anyone help me with the date and origin of this fragment please. It looks to me to be from
an 11/12 C gradual, with its Carolingian script and adiastematic neumes. It’s the introit for the Easter Sunday mass. Approximate size is 310 x 210 mm.
It bears a strong resemblance to this one in the library of St. Gall, which is dated 980 - 1000.
However the initial is more of a foliate design than the knotted St Gaul ‘R', and I know little of the chronology of illuminated initial design.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Andrew Leckie
Replies
It seems here in Italy you are well adviced not to rely on the given infrastructure (which forces you to carry your own equipment around), but the fact that the government is so afraid of education points also at the real value things have, despite the undecent wages they are ready to pay (as well as school teachers in certain districts of Naples, who go without any payment on the streets, because it is the only place to meet those students who will never attend school because they are forced to “look after their families”). I know, nowadays titles such as “university of excellence” suggerate that belonging to the ruling elite is all what matters in the academic world, but this would in fact turn us into Philistines who devaluate culture by our intention to exchange them for a better social status (at least at universities founded during the 19th century for very idealistic purposes like the Humboldt-University, although it was originally called Royal University, I would appreciate, if the staff there recalled certain concepts by Wilhelm von Humboldt, since it would make them think twice to accept such a hypocritical “distinction”). According to Hannah Arendt's analysis, it is the wrong attitude which creates an “education proletariate”. Therefore we should never be afraid to be clear about our real place we should have in society, it does include that we do not avoid the sour subjects!
Maybe if Andrew did ask me to prove that this manuscript is not a fake, I would apply to certain rules which you alluded to. I am just here to learn from each other like most of the inscribed members (and with respect to Miguel’s researches I certainly did). I do know that only a few colleagues rarely mention in their lectures about music history, how long St Gall neumes in campo aperto had been used in certain corners of the German speaking territory (while in others not). It simply means that Andrew’s fragment is not that Carolingian as it seemed to him, since it was written later. I am glad that you did appreciate this exchange, but you should also have a look at the groupe “German music”, where I announced Stefan Morent’s contributions about the musical life at monasteries near Lake Constance until the 18th century. I think you need to be in a very provincial place to understand this very particular imagination of an urban musical taste, but unlike market values such details do not harm the value of heritage, even if the manuscript might hardly be called “Carolingian”.
The point is just that there is a fine but critical line between gift transactions and commercial transactions. I have no problem with Andrew's asking price, purely as a commercial decision. But I can see Miguel's point that something like that may sour the spirit of this forum, in which people share knowledge with no thought of monetary gain. Nobody likes to give something for free only to see somebody else make a profit of it.
Generally speaking I think it's important to charge money in the right context, not for the sake of the money, but because it clarifies the terms of the transaction. If you offer a lecture for free just to be a nice guy, you'll quickly discover that you're expected to bring your own sound equipment and to make your own travel arrangements, book your own hotel, etc. If you charge $300 (which is a paltry sum compared to what a musician would typically ask), everything else you request will be gladly taken care of. If people don't want to pay the $300, then that's clarity right there: you're better off not doing the lecture in the first place. It doesn't matter whether you ask $300, or $100, or $1,000. It's the principle that matters. Recently I got a request from a local church to deliver a lecture on Luther and music later this year. I have taught on that subject so often, and have so many powerpoint slides that I've made over the years, that basically I could pull together a lecture in half an hour and deliver it this afternoon. For friends and colleagues I would do that for free, any time, with pleasure, because it's a fascinating topic. But with people I don't know there have to be ground rules.
So I suspect that this is what made the whole thing dicey for Miguel: somebody who'd be in it to make money would be an interloper in this forum. I don't think Andrew is. But there may well be a point, Oliver, where your valuable expertise, for example, ought to be duly remunerated, and that's the point at which the discussion about a fragment like this would need to be continued outside this forum.
Please apologise, if my "offerings" here are not on that level, although I try my very best ;)
But thank you very much for pointing out this interesting publication of yours.
Re: gift economy, see https://www.academia.edu/2077796/Musical_Offerings_in_the_Renaissance . I have written several other articles which address the implications of the gift economy in Medieval music, and of course there is extensive literature on the subject. But this was my first statement.
I have no idea why my replies don't show up elsewhere. I just reply, that's all I do.
En tous cas ces résultats (en comparaison avec la quanité des manuscrits numérisés latins) font évident que la numérisation des manuscrits grecs a une priorité si basse vers un degré qui doit laisser beaucoup entre nous consternés.
Concernant le projet de la numérisation des papyri dans toutes les collections du monde, il est évident que la langue de la source n'existe pas comme critère qui pouvait avoir aucune influence à cette décision.
Il était beaucoup mieux que je pouvais dire la même concernant les manuscrits, mais il me semble que la patrimoine mondiale définie comme ça donne un portrait de cette civilisation comme dans un mirroir.
Il s'agît d'une civilisation chauviniste qui a une phobie en face des autres. Déjà le savoir conservé dans les manuscrits grecs est perçu comme une menace ! À la fin c'est un signe d'une mauvaise education...
Il y a de plus en plus de numérisation direct des manuscrits grecs à la bnf:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/sru?operation=searchRe...
Oliver Gerlach said:
I wonder, why your reply is not visible in the activity bar.
I am not sure what "the economy of gifts" is supposed to mean (when I make a gift, it is simply a gift, even if it is money for Andrew Leckie, at least according to his definition of "his work" given on his company's website). Please note that we also register deals here of those who do not ask for an opinion as he did. Only in this case it was reciprocal as I said.
But if you really insist on such a material calculation, the value of cultural heritage is not as neutral and ethical as some might think. You have to calculate, what each manuscript does cost an institution like the Bibliothèque nationale over the long period of its ownership with all personal wages needed for a staff to look after them. Thus, you will soon find out the difference between a private owner who is also a high risk that such a fragment will survive on a longterm perspective. Not every collector is that important that the collection can generate a company of its own like the Peggy Guggenheim foundation. For this very reason, I believe that Andrew Leckie's passion is not as ill-minded, as it was if he followed Miguel's concept of passion for manuscripts.
If you compare this to even high market values (which cause indeed the problem that they make a longterm conservation offered by such an institution unlikely), it is peanuts indeed and very small to such a material value of heritage. We can always conclude that capitalism (at least as it has turned out nowadays, beyond the wildest nigthmares that Karl Marx could ever have had during his life span) is stupid and destructive, but we should not forget: the harshest critics are among the economists as well!
I just would like to point out the difference between various sources even preserved at such institutions. I just realised, how much money is spent on the digitisation of Latin sources, and you will learn that "cultural world heritage" is defined by a man who must be a good Christian, therefore he prefers Latin manuscripts. Until now there is not one Greek manuscript of the Bibliothèque nationale which was reproduced in colour, just black-and-white reproductions of former microfilms (except of the Byzantine gift by emperor Michael for the Royal Abbey of Saint-Denis, the collected works of Pseudo-Dionysios Areopagitis in his own language which Abbot Hilduin tried so hard to translate into Latin!!!).
I do not know whether the fact that the Greek sources are more requested to be seen as originals in Paris, will have a positive influence on a longer preservation. I can only guess...
Absolutely, it's perfectly fine to charge for one's expertise. As far as I am concerned musicology is a gift economy, but only within the circle of colleagues and friends. With people outside the circle it's transactional.
@ Rob Wegman
I also owe nobody my expertise, if I do not like to.
First of all, Andrew did not offer any explanation in front of us as far as the prices are concerned (although I am grateful to be enligtened by him about the difference between Australian and US dollars), some members here (and Miguel was one of them) did research about this fragment, that it came via ebay to Australia for instance, and how its value had raised. But the article which Dominique found, made it obvious that a certain transparancy is part of his business policies. We discussed here another deal for a much higher price, and we can see that not many auctioneers are specialised on manuscripts as his company is...
I just dared to point out, that this is the deal, if you ask here for others' expertise, you and your deal will also be spotted by members here. Take it or leave it!
You are absolutely right, if you are a private owner, you can hang a van Gogh next to a very nasty piece, whatever your (lack of) taste tells you to do. You have also the right to hide your ownership in public, as the owner of the Archimedes palimpsest chose to do who at least left it to restaurators of Walter's Art Gallery and sponsored research about this manuscript.
Nevertheless, there is something of a value which makes it public property due to the concept of world heritage, and it should not be confused with market values, because it is not exactly the same (therefore I quoted Paul Getty). The Pergamon and the British Museum hold objects (the fact how they came to these places is related to a certain period of imperialism in history), and there have been recent conferences where archaeologists claimed that these objects ought to be transferred to its original environment. Nobody can doubt that such claims are legitimate.
The same is true for my own fieldwork. Just because I am the one, who does the recordings, does not mean that I am the owner of these recordings. In case of doubt my field has the rights and the money made with such objects should be used to grant that these traditions also will have future. It is my most urgent wish, whatever an American lawyer might have to say about it from the point of international copyright and the American way to handle them.
Rob, Thank you. I really appreciate your comments. As I say above, I see myself as a temporary (and fortunate) custodian of this and other leaves. I learn and draw pleasure from them and then move them along to the next custodian. Although others like to build a collection, I have no personal interest in doing so, but I believe that this doesn't preclude me from fully appreciating these wonderful "time machines".
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