Urb.lat.602

XI-XII – Tropaire et processional de Monte Cassino – RISM B/XIV(2), 357-358

103v a. Dicant nunc Judaei (version mélodique ambrosienne)

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Urb.lat.677

Palimpseste. ce manuscrit ne se trouve pas dans le Iter liturgicum italicum. Peut-être se trouve-t-il dans l'ouvrage récent de Lusa Nardini ?

1271955273?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024

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  • Chiedo scusa, ma mi sembra che Dominique aveva chiuso questa discussione. Questo non è la filosofia di un gruppo fondato da me, neanche di un seminario o di una lezione, quando li faccio all'università.

  • Infatti, quando l'avevo incontrato al convegno di Cassino nel 2010, avevo pensato che lei studiava là, anche perché il suo lavoro è così presente nelle pubblicazioni realizzate a Cassino. Però, non mi sembra un insulto, magari una scuola buona, se anche mi scrive che non è la sua.

    In ogni caso è un piccolo mondo, non solo, ma in particolare in Italia. Evidentemente un po' troppo!

    Senz'altro non ho mai scritto di lei o del suo lavoro, con eccezione del rapporto che dovevo fare al Instituto Storico Germanico a Roma. Là ho fatto complimenti per il suo contributo, come argomento scientifico naturalmente. Ma non mi ricordo bene, perché questi rapporti sono più una communicazione interna al DHI. Forse anche avevo scritto che l'atmosfera tra i participanti era un po' rigida. È questo il motivo per fare finta di essere così straniera? Lei mi ha già dimenticato o cerca a dimenticarmi, solo perché scrivevo del fatto che sono sigla diversi al mondo che quelli usati da bmb?

  • Se lo dice lei, va bene. Mi sono limitata a dare la mia opinione sulla base in questione secondo la mia esperienza personale. Per il futuro, la pregherei di attenersi agli argomenti scientifici senza lanciarsi in commenti fuori luogo sul mio lavoro e la mia formazione, di cui evidentemente non sa molto. Grazie e buon lavoro.

  • It does not matter, they are inscribed here anyway, and I learnt a lot from them in many respects.

  • As I told you, I'm not responsible for bmb' choices. I'm a user, like everyone. The persons in charge for the website are not my teachers. The website is hosted by the University of Cassino. Please write directly to them.

    Oliver Gerlach said:

    I answer you in English, because I think this concerns everyone.

    I do not think it is useful to discuss norms here, because they are simply as they are, and as usual there is not just one, especially if we are used to publish our work in many languages. But it is definitely useful to exchange within this network, according to which norm a certain database was made and how userfriendly it is. That is, why we are here.

    My original purpose was simply to demonstrate here for others, how bmb works, because it is also very useful to use this information to make a better description of the online sources you would like to announce within this groupe. Since bmb was made by your teachers, you know it very well and you will have probably the whole series of bmb close to your desk, but I expect that many members inscribed here have much less experience with it.

    Since I did realise that it is not easy to get results from the one search mask, it is better to use the sigla according to bmb, but it failed to offer a direct link to them. I can only guess, but it looks like the list of registered manscripts is not complete and for this very reason they do not like to present it to the public.

    My very concrete suggestion is, that your teachers just reduce this list to a list of sigla, so that they avoid the trouble that they have to update it permanently. It will be short enough that they can put it on one web page, so that you can just search the whole page for every library you are looking for. If you prefer to have one page for each letter, I recommend at least to make a link on "Roma, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana" that leads to the entry for "Città del Vaticano etc." on the page for the letter V. That is we use links for! The corresponding solution is an alias entry within the database. It does not mean that they, you or anyone else have to subscribe RISM and its norms, but in case of doubt they might offer a helping hand to some of your users who might have got lost...

    Anyway the page

    http://edu.let.unicas.it/bmb/querman.htm

    and especially

    http://edu.let.unicas.it/bmb/querbmb1.htm

    must have definitely the link to this list. Thus, it will become useful for everyone who appreciates it (hopefully after the lecture of this discussion which offers at least a little insight).

    BAV - Deux manuscrits bénéventains en ligne (Urb.lat.602 et Urb.lat.677)
    Urb.lat.602 XI-XII – Tropaire et processional de Monte Cassino – RISM B/XIV(2), 357-358 103v a. Dicant nunc Judaei (version mélodique ambrosienne)  …
  • I answer you in English, because I think this concerns everyone.

    I do not think it is useful to discuss norms here, because they are simply as they are, and as usual there is not just one, especially if we are used to publish our work in many languages. But it is definitely useful to exchange within this network, according to which norm a certain database was made and how userfriendly it is. That is, why we are here.

    My original purpose was simply to demonstrate here for others, how bmb works, because it is also very useful to use this information to make a better description of the online sources you would like to announce within this groupe. Since bmb was made by your teachers, you know it very well and you will have probably the whole series of bmb close to your desk, but I expect that many members inscribed here have much less experience with it.

    Since I did realise that it is not easy to get results from the one search mask, it is better to use the sigla according to bmb, but it failed to offer a direct link to them. I can only guess, but it looks like the list of registered manscripts is not complete and for this very reason they do not like to present it to the public.

    My very concrete suggestion is, that your teachers just reduce this list to a list of sigla, so that they avoid the trouble that they have to update it permanently. It will be short enough that they can put it on one web page, so that you can just search the whole page for every library you are looking for. If you prefer to have one page for each letter, I recommend at least to make a link on "Roma, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana" that leads to the entry for "Città del Vaticano etc." on the page for the letter V. That is we use links for! The corresponding solution is an alias entry within the database. It does not mean that they, you or anyone else have to subscribe RISM and its norms, but in case of doubt they might offer a helping hand to some of your users who might have got lost...

    Anyway the page

    http://edu.let.unicas.it/bmb/querman.htm

    and especially

    http://edu.let.unicas.it/bmb/querbmb1.htm

    must have definitely the link to this list. Thus, it will become useful for everyone who appreciates it (hopefully after the lecture of this discussion which offers at least a little insight).

  • Bene, inoltri la lista a chi di competenza. Penso che la discussione abbia preso un'ampiezza sproporzionata rispetto a quello che era mia intenzione, cioè di dire che se BMB distingue Città del Vaticano e Roma non è una stranezza, ma una norma condivisa, non solo dai cataloghi ma anche da molte basi dati. 

    Oliver Gerlach said:

    Eh va bene... Se tutti i cataloghi (anche quelli dei manoscritti greci) della BAV sono fatti in questa maniera meravigliosa, nessuno non deve chiedermi di assistere i lettori a cercare un ago in un pagliaio. Sono convinto, se loro hanno il tempo disponibile per quella ricerca, possono anche seguire il disputo, se la città del Vaticano si trova a Roma o no...  Mi sembra proprio la giusta per fare questa distinzione verso il RISM!

    Adesso tutti gli altri possono almeno scappare questa trappola con l'inventario dei sigla che ho dato io.

    BAV - Deux manuscrits bénéventains en ligne (Urb.lat.602 et Urb.lat.677)
    Urb.lat.602 XI-XII – Tropaire et processional de Monte Cassino – RISM B/XIV(2), 357-358 103v a. Dicant nunc Judaei (version mélodique ambrosienne)  …
  • Eh va bene... Se tutti i cataloghi (anche quelli dei manoscritti greci) della BAV sono fatti in questa maniera meravigliosa, nessuno non deve chiedermi di assistere i lettori a cercare un ago in un pagliaio. Sono convinto, se loro hanno il tempo disponibile per quella ricerca, possono anche seguire il disputo, se la città del Vaticano si trova a Roma o no...  Mi sembra proprio la giusta per fare questa distinzione verso il RISM!

    Adesso tutti gli altri possono almeno scappare questa trappola con l'inventario dei sigla che ho dato io.

  • Je ne connais pas les sigles à mémoire, je dis seulement que ce n'est pas compliqué de trouver les manuscrits dans BMB. Je répète, BMB ce n'est pas mon projet et je ne suis pas responsable de la manière où les données sont affichées. Je suis un utilisateur et personnellement j'apprécie ce travail. Chaque base de données a ses points forts et faibles, et je trouve que BMB est plutôt bien faite. Si vous trouvez votre liste indispensable, vous pouvez contacter les responsables de BMB (les références sont sur le site).

    Ma remarque sur le Vatican, peut-être vous ne l'avez pas compris, concernait seulement le souci de donner les cotes des manuscrits de manière correcte, ce qu'on essaye de faire à l'IRHT (http://medium.irht.cnrs.fr). Dire qu'il faut mettre la BAV sous Rome seulement parce que le RISM fait ça, ce n'est pas une approche acceptable.

    Par ailleurs, les catalogues ne sont jamais inutiles pour les musicologues...

    Medium
  • Vous savez tous ces sigles à la mémoire, mais personne ne doit les savoir ni perd le temps de les mémoriser... Pour cela la liste que je donne, pendant vous la cachez alors qu'elle exist, est utile !

    Je ne pourrais plus faire que donner les conseils, j'espère toujours que ça aide d'améliorer les choses. Vous me laissez avec l'impression que vous préférez assassiner vos projets et les gens simplement perdent leurs temps en vain de vous rapporter les défaits si évidentes.

    Je ne commente pas concernant certains connaisseurs du Vatican et leurs catalogues qui sont complètement inutiles pour les musicologues qui perdent leurs temps limité à la bibliothèque (c'était moi qui avait aidé le personnel là pour assister autres lecteurs, au moins j'avais l'impression que dans ce cas d'urgence on l'avait apprécié). Et franchement, la discussion de l'indépendence du Vatican ne m'intéresse pas trop.

    La discussion ici est une autre. Une banque des dates doit offrir solutions pour différents points de vue, même que on peut argumenter que une certain manière de transcrire un mot de recherche serait plus correcte qu'une autre.

    C'est tout !

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