Nous pouvons voir en ce moment en vente sur ebay, 23 folios d'un même graduel, certainement cartusien du XVème siècle.

https://www.ebay.ch/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XGREGORIANIK%2CCHORAL%2CLITHURGISCHE+HANDSCHRIFT+AUF+PERGAMENT%2CUM.TRS0&_nkw=GREGORIANIK%2CCHORAL%2CLITHURGISCHE+HANDSCHRIFT+AUF+PERGAMENT%2CUM&_sacat=0

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  • As to the possible Carthusian provenance of these pages, see this image, from this page : .9126821667?profile=originalThere, we are in the week before Dom in Pass., feria quinta. The off given in the ms is Do[mine] i[n] auxil[ium], which is as far as I know typical for Carthusians on this position. (More usually, one finds as OF Domine ad adiuvandum)

    In addition, those vertical red bars are conspicuous in Carthusian mss., as Dominique pointed out. (Although to be fair I once spotted them in a Dominican ms as well.)

    Finally, the simplicity/sobriety of the pages we are able to see could point towards Carthusian provenance. Even for the Assumption (image from here), nothing fancy is done: 9126821688?profile=original

  • Je n'en suis pas totalement sûr, cependant, la mise en page et les barres de séparation de segments musicaux sont identiques à de très nombreux manuscrits chartreux de cette période...


    Oliver Gerlach said:

    Hard to say in case of the Cartusian rite and its customs,...

    Graduel cartusien démembré en vente sur ebay
    Nous pouvons voir en ce moment en vente sur ebay, 23 folios d'un même graduel, certainement cartusien du XVème siècle. https://www.ebay.ch/sch/i.ht…
  • Hard to say in case of the Cartusian rite and its customs, if the IRHT is the right institution. So far research in this field has not gained much attention, although it is very prominent here in Campania!

    We have the charterhouse San Martino in a very prominent place of Naples, and even a bigger one in the South at Padula. You have a whole internal corridor for the procession of Cartusians with precious intarsia in the choirchairs depicting scenes from the Old Testament... The staff of the National Library is very nice, but definitely not at the professional level as certain institutions specialised in conservation and restauration as the IRHT in Paris or Grottaferrata Abbey in Latium.

    But there can be no doubt that the quality of these photos is not on a professional level, and I also do expect that such an institution would insist to make their own photos and to check, if the conditions provided by the new owner do not simply result in a careless form of vandalism, if nothing is done on a long-term prospect. Of course, there are private owners who are ready to deal with such institutions, but they are very rare!

    As a whole Miguel is right, if he points out that both concepts (local heritage, human profit) exclude each other. That is the reason, why the concept has been established by the UN, since we all do experience the destructive power of capitalism to a degree that not even Karl Marx could have imagined in his wildest nightmares!

  • 1. In this case, the vendor has posted legible images.

    2. Where exactly should they be sent?

    3. What criteria would you suggest? And how can funds be raised if the manuscript is judged deserving?

  • D'un point de vue scientifique, le plus profitable pour l'histoire du patrimoine serait

    1. d'obtenir du vendeur une photographie de chaque feuillet

    2. de déposer le lot d'images sous un identifiant unique à l'IRHT

    3. d'identifier les spécificités du contenu et de voir si ce manuscrit mérite qu'on essaie de la racheter.

    Amitiés

    Martin Morard

    CNRS / institut de recherche et d'histoire des textes Paris

  • Dear Miguel

    It is probably a clever attitude to your professors, as long as they do examine you... Did it work?

    And don't forget the Crusades are over...

    I really got doubts after Georg W. Bush junior established his new world order in Iraq, Iran was already turned away from modern civilisation, where it already was during 1970s, and now even Western musicologists feel no longer ashamed to reintroduce the term "Gregorian chant" and to believe that this is enough to teach "medieval chant", while the pendant among the politicians do the same "crusades" in Syria. I wonder what makes you so sure?

    Dear Paul

    You should also ask for the famous "bonus", if you can grant a professional conservation (together with preventing a certain intended vandalism)!

    I wonder what convinced Sven Heininger that he can sell it for a better price, if he cuts the fragment into folios? Is it ebay?

    It is already something which helps to decrease its market value considerably, even if this is obviously not something they teach at Parisian universities... at least not at the best one...

  • It's a nice price i think.

  • Herr Heininger has offered me all 23 folios for €2000 (instead of €100 each), including delivery.

  • I have not a PhD but i have a master degree it's juste a level before the PhD thanks... Don't forget there are always better than oneself.

    If you have a PhD it's nice for you but for me it's not the degree which determines a competence.

    So ok you want protect world heritage but in the world we are many works (sellers) not just PhD and a seller lives with money sorry if you live without money it's nice... And to finish we have to differentiate between the seller and the person who separates folios from the book...It's note the same...  And don't forget the Crusades are over...

    I would also say that the PhD's in medieval musicology are funny because you are shocked for the musical manuscripts dismembered
    but when it comes to Bible leaflets or nobody's leaflets no one talks about it here ... it's slightly hypocritical.
  • Please tell me... I am just curious. What is the best university in Paris and what do you learn there?

    I have already my titles since many years (including the PhD, made in one of these insane institutions you liked to refer to). The point is not to "want heritage". It is my job to register and to protect world heritage, and to look that the money arrives to whom it belongs!

    Just to avoid misunderstandings: it is not the question of ownership and profit!

    If you want that, you will end up with MacDonalds and a playstation. But everybody has the choice...

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