Découverte d'un chalumeau triple du XIV (?) à Staraya Russa

[Dominique Gatté]

Magnifique chalumeau triple découvert en Russie à Staraya Russa dans des strates du XIVème siècle !

La longueur est de 15.30cm.

Le diamètre du tenon est de taille inégale entre 2.70cm et 3.30cm.

Le diamètre moyen des perces est de 0.08cm

[Dominique Gatté]

Demain, la cornemuse de Staraya Russa sera présenté à Moscou, à la table ronde "Instruments et traditions instrumentales de la Russie. Problèmes de terminologie " :

http://starcheolog.livejournal.com/148613.html

traduction :

https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=ru&tl=fr&js=y&...

[Dominique Gatté]

Encore à Novgorod !

Cette fois la discussion est ici :

https://gregorian-chant.ning.com/group/cordophones-medievaux/forum/t...

[Yuri Terenyi]

That's how it should be done.

Jean-Luc Matte a dit :

For once we have an old instrument and not an iconography, it is possible to re-enactments that are other things pure speculation as what we can do from a picture or sculpture .

However, experience shows that even for relatively recent instruments (bagpipes nineteenth century, for example), the factors are rarely exact copies: they always consciously or not introduce changes to be closer to their personal design of the instrument or game modes actuel.Ici as the instrument was slightly roughed there are inevitably a degree of interpretation and of course still the question of reeds ...

Nevertheless it would be interesting to make several identical reconstructions and to entrust some time musicians from very different backgrounds (eg, a Hungarian, a Croatian, a zampogna Italian player, a player boha etc. ..) and compare the results.

Because an instrument is nothing without directory and playing technique: imagine that we will know more launeddas Sardinian by a one or two instruments and no registration or other information on the game style: the knowledge of the traditionally Sardinian music played on other instrument would no doubt have some clues but if in addition we do not know it, it is likely that we could not even imagine what can Sardinian Upon these three sticks and that would have virtually no chance to get close.

JL

[troubadour31]

[Jean-Luc Matte]

Pour une fois que l'on a un instrument ancien et non une iconographie, il est possible de faire des reconstitutions qui soient autre choses que de pures spéculations comme ce que l'on peut faire à partir d'une image ou d'une sculpture.

L'expérience montre toutefois que même pour des instruments relativement récents (cornemuses du XIXème siècle par exemple), les facteurs font rarement des copies exactes : ils introduisent toujours consciemment ou non des modifications afin de se rapprocher de leur conception personnelle de l'instrument ou des modes de jeu actuel.Ici comme l'instrument a été un peu malmené il y a forcément une part d'interprétation et, naturellement toujours la question des anches...

Il n'empêche qu'il serait intéressant de faire plusieurs reconstitutions identiques et de les confier un certain temps à des musiciens d'horizons très différents (par exemple un hongrois, un croate, un italien joueur de zampogna, un joueur de boha etc...) et de comparer les résultats.

Parce qu'un instrument n'est rien sans répertoire et technique de jeu : imaginez que l'on ne connaisse plus les launeddas sardes que par un un ou deux instruments et ni enregistrement ni autre information sur le style de jeu : la connaissance de la musique sarde jouée de manière traditionnelle sur d'autres instrument permettrait sans doute de disposer de quelques indices mais si, en plus on ne connaissait plus celle-ci, il est fort probable que l'on ne pourrait même pas imaginer ce que les sardes peuvent tirer de ces trois cannes et que l'on aurait quasiment aucune chance de pouvoir s'en approcher.

JL

[Dominique Gatté]

Thank you Yuri for the new video !

[Yuri Terenyi]

Oh, Dominique, this is by the way, the one earmarked for you.
Yuri Terenyi a dit :

OK, my second reconstruction....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH7026jEJlA

[Yuri Terenyi]

OK, my second reconstruction. This time I used 7 mm bores in all three channels. (Instead of the 8 mm previously. The sound seems to be much mellower. The tuning is amazing, I didn't have to actually tune any of the fingerholes. 

A few remarks. This chanter tends to favour staccato playing, as you cannot play open fingering. (the scale is divided between the front and the back.) You can see in the clip that a quick repeated pair of notes a tone apart has to be played in a very strange way, kind of throwing the chanter between the thumb and the front finger. The tune is a Balkan one, and in the original the lowest note is a tone below the tonic, not a semitone. Since I haven't even properly learned the playing technique, let alone practiced, don't be too harsh on my playing ability. The fingering is something to get used to.

[Anton Tunin]

what is the dating of this sculpture?
Dominique Gatté a dit :

Anton thank you for your comment !

Maybe, my speech is lovely story and there is no real proof of direct connection. But the comparison between the bagpipe from Staraya Russa and Saint-Lô is thrilling...

Among all the medieval iconography of the bagpipes, I have seen only one bagpipe also similar.

We are may be in a same bagpipe family...

Anton Tunin a dit :

Though it shows nice typological connections I would doubt the direct connection...

 

[Anton Tunin]

For the XIV cent. vikings are already a thing of the past. Of course, there were well established contacts and so we can't exclude possibility of the chanter imported. But I think we have to wait for more information ;-) 

As for Mordvin and Mari pipes I agree, it's a good correspondence. At the discussed times they were more connected with Tatar Golden Horde, I suppose. But lying on border outskirts of the Rus they could preserve some archaic features for a long time.

Yuri Terenyi a dit :

Novgorod's archaeological finds include literally any number (thousands) of very clearly Viking items. The early Rus decorations are identical to contemporary Viking styles. So it's not a question of a lone piper setting sail somewhere in the West, but thousands of Westerners constantly moving in and out of Novgorod. (And Staraya Russa, think of it more on the lines of Novgorod's main suburb. It's on the opposite side of the lake.)

But yes, the find is certainly much later. My view is still that this chanter has more to do with the types that survived in the area to recent times. 

I have to admit that the Bashkir pipes were something I misremembered. In Von Bartha's work the examples are Mordvin and Cheremiss. No Bashkir. What I hazily remember is that some few years ago I was briefly in correspondence with a native Chuvash player, and he mentioned Bashkir pipes of the same kind. Sorry for the confusion.(After all, I was writing from memory, yeeears after reading Von Bartha's report.)