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When I was a student of D. Joao Enout (himself a disciple of D. Cardine in Rome), I remeber he mentioned some melodies conserved on the Aramaic-speaking villages of Syria which resembled gregorian melodies.  It was many years ago, but I am quite sure he mentioned Jeremiah Lamentations of the Triduum Sacrum as the most convincing example of paleochristian melody which would have survived in the Aramaic-speaking tradition of these people.

Does anyone could confirm if there are really these surviving melodies in Aramaic speaking villages today?

Is it really the Lamentatio gregorian melody which was identified as similar to the Aramaic living tradition?

Thank you for your help!

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cf. also

Husmann, Heinrich, ed. Ein syro-melkitisches Tropologion mit altbyzantinischer Notation Sinai Syr. 261. Göttinger Orientforschungen, I. Reihe: Syriaca 9. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1975


Nice! Thanks for the source.


Neil Moran a dit :

cf. also

Husmann, Heinrich, ed. Ein syro-melkitisches Tropologion mit altbyzantinischer Notation Sinai Syr. 261. Göttinger Orientforschungen, I. Reihe: Syriaca 9. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1975

Oui, le manuscrit est très intéressant, mais, comme le titre l'indique, il est melkite. Il représente en fait la liturgie gréco-byzantine avec des chants traduits en syriaque et notés en notation paléo-byzantine. Les mélodies sont les mêmes que celles qu'on trouve dans les manuscrits grecs et n'ont rien de syriaque (sinon dans la mesure où il y aurait une origine dans un monde musical commun ou du moins semblable).

Les textes sont tous de la poésie liturgique et on n'y trouve donc pas de textes scripturaires, encore moins de lamentations...

Merci .  En fait, je cherche un exemple de mélodie paleo-chrétienne semblable à une grégoriene qui aurait survécue dans les traditions aramaïques actuelles.  Aux années 1980 les élèves de D. Cardine parlaient de ça, mais malheureseument je n'ai pas pris note des détails.

Ricossa a dit :

Oui, le manuscrit est très intéressant, mais, comme le titre l'indique, il est melkite. Il représente en fait la liturgie gréco-byzantine avec des chants traduits en syriaque et notés en notation paléo-byzantine. Les mélodies sont les mêmes que celles qu'on trouve dans les manuscrits grecs et n'ont rien de syriaque (sinon dans la mesure où il y aurait une origine dans un monde musical commun ou du moins semblable).

Les textes sont tous de la poésie liturgique et on n'y trouve donc pas de textes scripturaires, encore moins de lamentations...

Avez-vous déjà jeté un coup d'oeil dans le fameux livre "The sacred bridge" ?

Quant à moi, je suis très sceptiques avec ces hypothèses. En réalité, le ton de lecture grégorien des lamentations (en tout cas celui qui est publié dans les éditions modernes) n'est autre qu'une variante du premier ton psalmodique. De plus, il est difficile sinon impossible de prouver qu'une mélodie issue d'une tradition purement ORALE ait survécu pendant, disons, 1700 ans telle-quelle.

Les similitudes sont bien là, mais elles concernent les procédés, la manière de faire. À fonction égale, solution égale (mouche, chauve-souris et oiseau ont tous des ailes pour voler). Mais rien qu'en ce qui concerne le chant syriaque occidental, publié de nombreuses fois, on constate que le Beit Gazo, pourtant issu d'une tradition plus récente, est interprété différemment selon les régions, souvent même selon le chantre.

Quid des apports arabo-persans, par exemple ? ou ottomans ?

Nous n'avons tout simplement pas assez de données pour trancher là-dessus

"The Sacred Bridge" is really an exploration of the possibility of there being a Psalm Tone link back to the psalmody of the Jewish Temple. In early Christian times the temple was out of action, though I should imagine the psalm melodies ( Tonus Peregrinus especially) had wide usage at local level - almost folk melodies, around the synagogue at least. How else would a Levitical singer know the chants to do their one week a year stint in the Temple when it was functioning? I gather the idea has been debunked since the 50s.

There are indeed analogies, but "The Sacred Bridge" goes... too far. The examples of "tonus peregrinus" are not convincing. More, we know it was introduced late in the gregorian tradition and was associated only incidentally with the psalm 113 In exitu Israel. Its original function was to sing the canticle of Daniel in the festal Laudes and echoes roman, not "gallican" antiphons

I have ordered the book and will be reading it soon. But do you say the thesis of the book has been debunked since the 50s?



Gillian Lander a dit :

"The Sacred Bridge" is really an exploration of the possibility of there being a Psalm Tone link back to the psalmody of the Jewish Temple. In early Christian times the temple was out of action, though I should imagine the psalm melodies ( Tonus Peregrinus especially) had wide usage at local level - almost folk melodies, around the synagogue at least. How else would a Levitical singer know the chants to do their one week a year stint in the Temple when it was functioning? I gather the idea has been debunked since the 50s.

It is a classic and still worth reading, but especially the hypothesis that Gilian Lander mentions is quite problematic. I advice to consult the current studies like those by Frøyshov who discussed also Eric Werner in detail (you can also follow the tag Oktoechos). I still do not know the new publication by Svetlana Kujumdzieva, but it might be relevant as well.

I have a recording (CD from San Antonio Vocal Arts Ensemble -dir Christopher Moroney) where Tonus Peregrinus is sung as Jewish chant, in Hebrew for Psalm 113/14. (B'tseth Israel)   "Ancient Echoes"    http://www.wlp.jspaluch.com/search_results.htm?search-text=savae&am...  inlcuding scholarship of musicologist A.Z. Idelsohn. Idelsohn collected and recorded the religious and folk music of Jews..  He features, if I remember, in Sacred Bridge. I suspect Moroney is more performer than scholar.

Felix I hope will soon have direct contact with a Syriac community still singing old Aramaic chant. (in New Zealand... !), so it will be interesting to see what comes of it all.

Thank you. Are the studies of Froyshow out on the net or are them all under the tag oktoechos here?

Oliver Gerlach a dit :

It is a classic and still worth reading, but especially the hypothesis that Gilian Lander mentions is quite problematic. I advice to consult the current studies like those by Frøyshov who discussed also Eric Werner in detail (you can also follow the tag Oktoechos). I still do not know the new publication by Svetlana Kujumdzieva, but it might be relevant as well.

Yes, Gillian, I will write then soon. Thank you very much for all your help.

Gillian Lander a dit :

I have a recording (CD from San Antonio Vocal Arts Ensemble -dir Christopher Moroney) where Tonus Peregrinus is sung as Jewish chant, in Hebrew for Psalm 113/14. (B'tseth Israel)   "Ancient Echoes"    http://www.wlp.jspaluch.com/search_results.htm?search-text=savae&am...  inlcuding scholarship of musicologist A.Z. Idelsohn. Idelsohn collected and recorded the religious and folk music of Jews..  He features, if I remember, in Sacred Bridge. I suspect Moroney is more performer than scholar.

Felix I hope will soon have direct contact with a Syriac community still singing old Aramaic chant. (in New Zealand... !), so it will be interesting to see what comes of it all.

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