Oliver Gerlach > Agnieszka Budzinska-BennettNovember 8, 2022 3:29
The manuscript of Beauvais (Egerton 2615) is close to the Notre-Dame school (even if it is not strictly organised like the revised Magnus liber organi) as well as to the Aquitanian school («Viderunt emmanuel» as a troped organum over the Nativity gradual), and it has a melody which begins precisely like the one sung by Vellard (f. 49r). It is in fact a conductus which is composed over the clausula «mors» like the conductus in the manuscript of Palermo which concludes with the same words «et moritur mors» (at least in the first strophe). And we als have four-part conductus about this clausula. This explains close similarities, but the best book about these coincidences (concordances) is still Friedrich Ludwig's Repertorium.
Since you posted now the whole poem you can realise that the composition in question is in fact a «Benedicamus domino» tropus, not a conductus! It does not exclude cross connections, especially not in Aquitania.
I'm not looking for any of it, the mention of Madrid 289 and Egerton was just related to your association with Dominique's CD. We know that the text of Puer natus wandered off into cantiones repertoire at some point (including BD).
Oliver Gerlach > Agnieszka Budzinska-BennettNovember 8, 2022 9:49
I understood very well, but this comparison seems hardly be a coincidence, I think we have to compare and have a closer look at all three to understand this Benedicamus tropus.
Just to drop a line here: "Natus est" (Ma 289) has a different melody as the one recollected by Oliver, but uses the formula re fa fa mi do mi re (similar to the cadence "cum novo cantico" here), however in a completely different context. Maybe that was the association.
And as to Laufenberg: it is a completely different melody and the text is a macaronic cento of all sorts of medieval hymns - Puer natus ist uns gar schon (I've recorded it on "Kingdom of Heaven" Heinrich Laufenberg, ensemble Dragma, Ramée 2014)
Is anyone here somewhat further with finding the earliest source?
Oliver Gerlach > Agnieszka Budzinska-BennettNovember 8, 2022 1:52
The melody I recalled is from Dominique Vellard's CD of Aquitanian polyphony (let us say with Wulf Arlt's mistakes, because they sang directly from his transcription, not from the manuscript), but it is interesting that you point here at the Sicilian (Siculo-Norman) version in Madrid 289 (ff. 244v-245v, transcribed by Hiley in his doctoral thesis, p. 816), maybe not macaronic but Norman (especially the cadence of the first verse has a certain resemblence with the Aquitanian version which could be explained by the fact that Norman cantors and founding abbots in Normandy had been educated by the abbot Maïeul at Cluny), but it is definitely a different version as far as the cadences are concerned that this one here has in common with the Aquitanian composition which is «cum novo cantico» re fa-fa mi-mi-re after the fourth sol re (a "second memory" comes often closer, probably helped by Agnieszka's quotation).
Thus, I do not think that the Norman cantors were the connection, but there are also direct transfers between Aquitania and Beneventan scriptoria (Benevento and Montecassino, but the other way round), just think of the Gradual of Saint Yrieix.
Facsimile dei Tropario-sequenziari siculo-normanni (XII secolo) al internet
Descrizione da David Hiley (trad. da Donato Sansone):
E-Mn 19421:Tropario-sequenziario siculo-normanno per S. Agata di Catania (XII secolo)
E-Mn 288…
By the way, as far as I can remember, it seems that I know the refrain from the CD "Nova cantica" published by Dominique Vellard and Emmanuel Bonnardot.
Here is Todd M. McComb's description (Early Music FAQ):
The author of this page believes, text and the monodic melody dates back to the 14th century (probably he pasted and copied it from wikipedia which you should not regard as trustworthy, but it does not mean that other encyclopedies are ;):
I give you the link, since it has some concrete and useful references.
There are also Choral versions about it (Buxtehude, and Schein even in German!)... even Bach composed about the German version (here it says the first German version dates back to 1439, Heinrich von Laufenberg):
For the melody I cannot say, but the refrain "Cum novo cantico" with this protus plagalis tune was already used by Aquitanian composers, especially the longer refrain (but the ambitus stayed within the protus pentachord, not like here): "In cordis jubilo Christum natum adoremus cum novo cantico." I think the later tune developed from some old Christmas tropes of the 12th century.
The author of this page believes, text and the monodic melody dates back to the 14th century (probably he pasted and copied it from wikipedia which you should not regard as trustworthy, but it does not mean that other encyclopedies are ;):
I give you the link, since it has some concrete and useful references.
There are also Choral versions about it (Buxtehude, and Schein even in German!)... even Bach composed about the German version (here it says the first German version dates back to 1439, Heinrich von Laufenberg):
For the melody I cannot say, but the refrain "Cum novo cantico" with this protus plagalis tune was already used by Aquitanian composers, especially the longer refrain (but the ambitus stayed within the protus pentachord, not like here): "In cordis jubilo Christum natum adoremus cum novo cantico." I think the later tune developed from some old Christmas tropes of the 12th century.
Merci.I still have to found the origin of the melody.
Louis-Marie Salaün said:
Je ne connais pas le nom de l'auteur mais en tous cas on sait que ce chant fait partie du célèbre recueil médiéval finlandais-suédois "Piae Cantiones" publié en 1582
Je ne connais pas le nom de l'auteur mais en tous cas on sait que ce chant fait partie du célèbre recueil médiéval finlandais-suédois "Piae Cantiones" publié en 1582
Replies
The manuscript of Beauvais (Egerton 2615) is close to the Notre-Dame school (even if it is not strictly organised like the revised Magnus liber organi) as well as to the Aquitanian school («Viderunt emmanuel» as a troped organum over the Nativity gradual), and it has a melody which begins precisely like the one sung by Vellard (f. 49r). It is in fact a conductus which is composed over the clausula «mors» like the conductus in the manuscript of Palermo which concludes with the same words «et moritur mors» (at least in the first strophe). And we als have four-part conductus about this clausula. This explains close similarities, but the best book about these coincidences (concordances) is still Friedrich Ludwig's Repertorium.
Since you posted now the whole poem you can realise that the composition in question is in fact a «Benedicamus domino» tropus, not a conductus! It does not exclude cross connections, especially not in Aquitania.
I'm not looking for any of it, the mention of Madrid 289 and Egerton was just related to your association with Dominique's CD. We know that the text of Puer natus wandered off into cantiones repertoire at some point (including BD).
I understood very well, but this comparison seems hardly be a coincidence, I think we have to compare and have a closer look at all three to understand this Benedicamus tropus.
Just to drop a line here: "Natus est" (Ma 289) has a different melody as the one recollected by Oliver, but uses the formula re fa fa mi do mi re (similar to the cadence "cum novo cantico" here), however in a completely different context. Maybe that was the association.
And as to Laufenberg: it is a completely different melody and the text is a macaronic cento of all sorts of medieval hymns - Puer natus ist uns gar schon (I've recorded it on "Kingdom of Heaven" Heinrich Laufenberg, ensemble Dragma, Ramée 2014)
Is anyone here somewhat further with finding the earliest source?
The melody I recalled is from Dominique Vellard's CD of Aquitanian polyphony (let us say with Wulf Arlt's mistakes, because they sang directly from his transcription, not from the manuscript), but it is interesting that you point here at the Sicilian (Siculo-Norman) version in Madrid 289 (ff. 244v-245v, transcribed by Hiley in his doctoral thesis, p. 816), maybe not macaronic but Norman (especially the cadence of the first verse has a certain resemblence with the Aquitanian version which could be explained by the fact that Norman cantors and founding abbots in Normandy had been educated by the abbot Maïeul at Cluny), but it is definitely a different version as far as the cadences are concerned that this one here has in common with the Aquitanian composition which is «cum novo cantico» re fa-fa mi-mi-re after the fourth sol re (a "second memory" comes often closer, probably helped by Agnieszka's quotation).
Thus, I do not think that the Norman cantors were the connection, but there are also direct transfers between Aquitania and Beneventan scriptoria (Benevento and Montecassino, but the other way round), just think of the Gradual of Saint Yrieix.
By the way, as far as I can remember, it seems that I know the refrain from the CD "Nova cantica" published by Dominique Vellard and Emmanuel Bonnardot.
Here is Todd M. McComb's description (Early Music FAQ):
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/dhm77196.htm
Unfortunately, I have the CD not with me. Thus, I cannot check, but I think it was the monophonic conductus «Natus est» (track 11).
The melody I remember, probably applied to this text (alas a human memory is so flexible):
re fa-fa sol-sol-la la-sol la-re sol-fa-mi-re [the ending is like notated here]
Thank you.
Oliver Gerlach said:
The author of this page believes, text and the monodic melody dates back to the 14th century (probably he pasted and copied it from wikipedia which you should not regard as trustworthy, but it does not mean that other encyclopedies are ;):
https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/NonEngli...
I give you the link, since it has some concrete and useful references.
There are also Choral versions about it (Buxtehude, and Schein even in German!)... even Bach composed about the German version (here it says the first German version dates back to 1439, Heinrich von Laufenberg):
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Ein-Kind-geborn-zu-Bethlehem.htm
For the melody I cannot say, but the refrain "Cum novo cantico" with this protus plagalis tune was already used by Aquitanian composers, especially the longer refrain (but the ambitus stayed within the protus pentachord, not like here): "In cordis jubilo Christum natum adoremus cum novo cantico." I think the later tune developed from some old Christmas tropes of the 12th century.
You can check the sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Martial_school
Unfortunately, I did not find the tune I remembered on a first sight.
Merci.I still have to found the origin of the melody.
Louis-Marie Salaün said:
Je ne connais pas le nom de l'auteur mais en tous cas on sait que ce chant fait partie du célèbre recueil médiéval finlandais-suédois "Piae Cantiones" publié en 1582